Delve Talks: Deanna Ballew, Widen Enterprises

Transcript

Dave Franchino: [00:00:00] Welcome and hello, everybody, Dave Franchino here and my co-host, Stefanie Norvaisas, who's Delve's Vice President of Strategy. Once again, my background is in engineering. Stef's background is in the social sciences and cultural anthropology. So for today's podcast, we'll be tag teaming with questions that, as always, come from slightly different perspectives.

[00:00:20] Today, we're really excited and proud to welcome Deanna Ballew, who's Vice President of Product Development at Widen Enterprises, a marketing technology company. They're headquartered here in Madison, Wisconsin. They've got a multi-faceted software platform that spans brand management, contact, lifestyle management, lifecycle management, video, and creative management solutions. Deanna started her career at EDS as a business analyst and web designer, and she moved to Widen, where she's held a variety of roles over the last 16 years, including managing software development and infrastructure, product management, and product development. She has a BS/BA in computer science and English writing from Loras College and earned her MBA from the University of Wisconsin- Madison this year. Congratulations, Deanna!

Deanna Ballew: [00:01:09] Thank you very much.

Dave Franchino: [00:01:17] So just as a reminder for our listeners, this podcast is exploring how companies work to create a culture of innovation. We're had conversations with a wide range of people trying to glean insights into their experiences and what they could apply to other fields. So, also in the midst of the pandemic there are a lot of new challenges to maintaining a creative culture, and we're going to try to explore that during our conversations.

[00:01:42] Welcome, Deanna. We really appreciate you taking the time for this. Maybe for our listeners, if you could start by just describing a little bit more about your background and how you came to the innovation role at Widen.

Deanna Ballew: [00:01:54] Yes, I certainly can. And, you know, as I reflected on this question and my background, I actually went back to the background of growing up on a farm as it relates to innovation and just seeing, you know, my dad having to do every single day innovative things to keep the farm going. You never know what you're going to get, whether it's a sick animal or broken farm equipment. So, I think that just solving problems every day and seeing him do that is just kind of brought that out of me and my background with innovation. It's just been around solving problems.

[00:02:30] I think, you know, throughout my career I see a problem and then I'm motivated to fix that, whether that's something with internal process or maybe that's a team being misaligned or whether it's just like we have capability or skills that we just don't have at our company. And how can I go acquire that and bring that back to take us to the next level? So, innovation to me is just really about identifying problems and then being motivated to solve those. So that's, you know, kind of my passion and where that comes from. And so, my background right now, as you kind of put out there, you know, my starting at EDS and being at Widen for 16 years, Widen has been a great and amazing place to solve problems. We're a growth company.

[00:03:15] When I started 16 years ago, there were only 10 of us. The software side of the business was just starting out. And, you know, I started in there as a front-end developer and then I moved into a project manager. We were having problems. We couldn't get all of our project requirements done. So, let's go get our PMP, let's start the project management division. And then, from there is this alignment on how we're actually delivering our software. So, you know, become the manager of the software development team and our infrastructure team, and bring them together and really put some processes in place there. Through that work then, too, as we saw more and more competition, you know, in 2013, 2014. ... Cloud infrastructure. We needed to figure out what's the vision and, you know, the gap there was "how do we create a vision?" Well, guess what? There's this whole world of product management--brand new to us. And so, I said, let's do it. And I wanted to learn that. So, I brought product management and that competency to Widen and, you know, went off with Pragmatic marketing and got certified there and networked on what that meant. And then through product management, there was a big gap on, you know, how do we actually solve the problems once we know what the problems are for our customers? 

And that's where I moved into director of product. And we put together a UX team and research and really built that competency up. Because it's one thing to know the problems. It's another thing to understand the users and then to solve those problems. And then moving into a V.P. or product development role to just really change how we deliver software going forward and how we grow it. And just recently now, at the end of August, I'm going to transition into the Chief Innovation Officer role at Widen. So that's gonna be a whole new challenge of how we have emerging businesses and how do we understand how we're going to do that alongside our current software business and keep them both growing.

Dave Franchino: [00:05:14] Congratulations on that promotion, that's fantastic and very exciting. You said something that really inspired me and provoked me. What you really described as kind of a blend between processes and discipline. And I think that's interesting because sometimes there's a narrative that says creativity and innovation sort of defies a process that requires sort of discipline and processes. But it seems as if your success at Widen would speak against that. Can you kind of talk on your philosophy and how to blend sort of the more creative aspects of innovation? You know, "We shall sell no wine before its time," versus the process and the discipline you’ve described in your previous narrative?

Deanna Ballew: [00:06:09] Yeah. The processes that we put in place. They don't always work, right? At some point, they break down. As we grow, as the company grows, our past processes don't fulfill the needs going forward. And that creativity mindset of innovation, you have to recognize that. You have to say, "this isn't working" and then come back to the table and say, "OK, what are we going to do to change it? How are we going to change it? What's missing? What's not working?" And that's where you can get really creative. That's where you can start saying, "Well, what if we did this differently? What if we hired and somebody with another experience? What if we used a new tool?".

[00:06:48] And so the creativity and how you recognize your current process is not working. And then work towards putting a new process in place, which is messy. I think everybody knows that. I don't know we always want to admit it. We all think like, hey, we're just gonna go do this and it's going to be great. But getting everybody to adopt a new process and then iterating on that and improving it like that is a challenge in itself. And that's innovating. You're innovating the way you work. So, process is really about the way you work, and you can innovate around that. And so, there's so many different ways that you can innovate. So, it's not just about a product or a deliverable. It's also about what you do. And when I think of innovation, it's really about changing human behavior. I mean, you have to solve a problem, but that problem has to then be adopted by humans and it changes us. That changes how we work, how we live day to day, our expectations of what we have in the world. And innovation can come in all areas.

Dave Franchino: [00:07:43] So let me dive into that willingness to change, and one of the things I really found fascinating is the number of pivots that Widen has seen during its 70 year history, starting from engraving into print and then finally into a software company. So, I'm going to guess that that kind of culture of being able to pivot or reinvent yourself has been a powerful contributor to what you've been able to accomplish. Why is that true? And if so, in what aspects?

Deanna Ballew: [00:08:13] Oh, most definitely. I mean, this starts with the founder, Mark White. And, you know, his mantra of nothing ventured, nothing gained. And so, you know, in reality, we have always .... at Widen we are rooted in our customers and we're rooted in the people who work at Widen And so, even though we may have pivoted on our offerings, our services and our products over the years, we still haven't changed that. That's what's core to us. You know what matters are the people that we work with and the customers that we serve. So, our focus is on satisfied employees. And if our employees are satisfied, they're going to deliver great services and products that satisfy our customers. So, you know, as we return and change and pivot, we're really looking at our customers and saying, look, what problems do they have?

[00:08:58] You know, going from print to software was really delivering a software solution for a current print customer who needed content from us back at their office. That's what that was about. And then we looked at the market and said, here's a broader opportunity. So, you know, at our core, Widen is about our employees and our customers and our core values that we have today. It is all about change. We have five core values: be the change flourish together, challenge today, do what you say you will, and service is our secret sauce. So, these five core values are just ingrained in us that we have to change, and change is just part of how we're going to get to the next 70 years.

Stefanie Norvaisas: [00:09:51] I really admire that. I'm also very impressed at how quickly you could rattle off your five core values. That really tells me that your values have been activated in your culture and aren't just something that sits on the website or on a poster somewhere. How can you give us some insight into how you manage or hire for people who are amenable to that level of change? Because, you know, we know it's human nature to resist change. So, do you have any tips or tricks or insights you could share with our listeners on how you keep that going?

Deanna Ballew: [00:10:33] You know, when we look at hiring, we do look at our technical capabilities and then we also look at some more of that culture fit. But hiring is hard, right? You can't really get to understand how people are going to interact with each other. Innovation comes from collaboration. That bringing all of the diverse minds together. And that's where that sweet spot is. So, it's not so much as looking for "Are you OK with change?" in the hiring process. Because if you ask that, people are going to say yes ... That's what people say and what people do. We know that's completely different. So, what we focus on instead is the onboarding process. Is building those skill sets once they, you know, become part of Widen. So, I really have focused in with my teams, my engineering, UX, product data teams. Our communication skills, our ability to say, "Yes, we're human and we're going to resist change. But that's OK." Let's push through that. It's going to cause us to have conflict and we're going to get defensive and we're going to, you know, maybe not always like what the other person has to say or the direction that comes forth for us. And that's OK. Now, what are the skills that we need to move past that? So, teaching the teams conflict skills and communication skills and just really making space and time to say, you know, what's gone well and what hasn't. And now let's change that. Whether that's with our processes, whether that's with our product and the way that we deliver our software. So, it's just ingrained in the way that we onboard how we work as a team.

Dave Franchino: [00:12:16] Let me build on that with another question. So, related to recruiting and on-boarding, as a woman in both the tech and the innovation fields, you've had to navigate a very male-dominated landscape for really your entire career. And I'm wondering if you're seeing progress in bringing more diversity to tech where it's really been an issue. And what advice would you have both to companies and to young women who are considering a career in technology or innovation?

Deanna Ballew: [00:12:41] Yeah, you know, there is definitely progress, but it's so slow that you would think that we've been talking about this for how long? I remember in 2009, I did a post on like "Five Tips for Women in Tech." You know, those things are still there and we're in 2020 and it feels kind of the same. It hasn't really moved as much as it could, you know, over those 10, 11 years. So, you know, as I think about, where are we still holding ourselves up on that diversity within the tech world? Regarding gender and, you know, other diversity as well, it can really come down to some of the unconscious biases that creep up on us.

[00:13:21] So as we're hiring or as we're looking at candidates, we unintentionally evaluate women differently. And I do this like, now that I'm aware of this, I see this in myself and we recognize those that at Widen and we're doing better at calling each other out on it. But it still comes up. I mean, you see in some evaluations of, you know, like this candidate just wasn't very positive or had a negative response. Well, that was then a candidate that was a woman. Positivity and negativity never came up in the review of, you know, the male interview. So, you know, there's just a different way that we're perceiving that. So, getting I think at the core of that change is the way that we hire in diverse candidates. So, we have to really, I think, look internally to make some big changes and what that diversity looks like in the work field. And we're making progress.

[00:14:11] You know, the other area is just women mentors in tech. So, having that believability that I as a woman can go into this field and make a difference. And so the more that we can have more women mentors talking about it and available to, you know, the girls and ladies that are thinking about coming into this field, the more competent they're going to be when they make that decision and choice. They can visualize themselves.

Dave Franchino: [00:14:38] Clearly, you're an inspiration and role model, but it's undeniable for those of us in the technology fields how far we have to go. In your comment on unconscious biases, it's one that I think we're all becoming more and more aware of over time. It's something we're all fighting with. So, it's good to hear that reinforced.

Deanna Ballew: [00:14:57] My advice for any woman who is considering this --- a career in tech -- is just do it. Technology, it's so fast paced, you never stop learning. There's always a new challenge and there's a new opportunity for you to grow. And we need women in technology. I mean, half the population are women. And to think about what women can bring to our world of technology, that's a strength that we have -- community building and emotional intelligence. Having more women in tech, having more women CEOs and CTOs, that can just radically change the way we live and the innovation that comes forth in the world. So, do it and just really take it on as a challenge head-on and see what you can change in the world as you take on the technology world.

Dave Franchino: [00:15:41] That is a great call to action. Read a really fascinating blog you wrote about shifting the definition of innovation away from in invention focus. Why? That's a really interesting nuance. Can you tell us a little bit more about that subtlety and possible what that transition has meant to Widen?

Deanna Ballew: [00:16:02] Yeah. So, since my start at Widen, we have always had this idea of like, let's innovate, let's innovate. How are we going to do this? You know, we adopted the 20 percent time from Google idea. We did a hackathon day and put, you know, two days into it. We went often and did quick, you know, startups and prototypes of new software and all of the things that we tried, it just wasn't hitting. So, what happened? That was kind of a transition for us.

[00:16:31] So it happened in 2017. And when we set our strategy for the next five years, we set a strategy of "Innovate with Focus" and our director of research and design, Leah Ujda, which some of you may know because she was part of your team at one point, she just had this big "aha." And she brought it in and she's like, "What do you guys think innovation is?" She's like, "I've been asking different people on the leadership team and you all have different responses." So, what we did then and what she helped lead for us is defining what innovation is. And she brought to us 10 Types of innovation. And using that framework, we found alignment. And if you're familiar with that, look, you know, it's really talking about all of the different innovation that's in the world. Innovation has to solve a problem that has to meet a market need, right? Innovation is not just about making something brand new that sits in a corner. Like, that's that might be invention, but that's not innovation in the different examples that are out there. So that was like a pivotal, transformational moment for us at Widen. But then also that focus we had to align on our leadership team what we were really able to do.

[00:17:39] So, the CEO and some of the other leadership on our software team, too, is like it's transformational. We're going to invent something brand new to the world. And then as a privately owned company, we're like, "Yeah, do we have the funds to do that?" No, we don't. So, what can we actually do? We also talked about and looked at what are the innovation we're doing right now? And it was our core innovation, very incremental, 90 percent of our time. And it was like, we really want to do something innovative. What can we do? We can do a Jason innovation. Well, how do we do that? Well, we have to stop doing all core innovation. And now we have to focus. We have to go learn what that means. We have to put people in those positions. We have to actually dedicate time and money to doing that. So, that was that's kind of that transition point for us, that it's not just invention. It's not creating, you know, this great little piece of software over in the corner of a hackathon day. It's about actually solving a problem and changing the way people do their work.

Dave Franchino [00:18:40] So as you've worked towards that transition, what's worked well and where have there been struggles for your team?

Deanna Ballew: [00:18:47] What worked, I think, really well for us was just taking a year to learn what innovation is, to learn how to do things differently. So, we took a year in 2019 and our annual goal for that year was just to learn about innovation.

[00:19:06] That was it. So, what we did was we spent time networking. We brought in colleagues from Hyper Innovation, American Family, yourself at Delve. We engaged with gener8tor. We went to roundtables. We just learned what other companies and organizations were doing around innovation. We also workshopped on experimentation. We dove right into things like design sprints. We brought Xcel Works in to talk about innovation.

[00:19:32] So, we really spent a year just absorbing what innovation looks like for other people and then taking that and turning that out into what it could mean to Widen. So, I would say, just don't jump right into it, right? Don't say how we're going to just now run. And we're going to innovate. No, you have to learn. It's a different skill set. It's a different mindset. And you need to make that transition.

Dave Franchino: [00:19:59] And then were there any struggles with that? Was there any internal resistance or has the transition been relatively seamless?

Deanna Ballew: [00:20:09] Has any transition been seamless? So, yeah. No, there were struggles. I think one of the biggest struggles is just realizing that this is not a mind shift for everyone. So, you know, our 2019 goal was every single person ... let's embrace this. Let's you know, we did really share out with the whole organization and trying to get people to care about it or people to learn, you know, that innovation is not invention and that just isn't necessary. This isn't necessary for everybody to embrace. It's a different mindset. And guess what? We need people who are really good at critical thinking and process improvement as well to keep our business running. So, it's not that it has to go across the whole organization. So, you know, I would say homing in on, you know, who really needs to learn this and who has the passion for it would have made this go a lot smoother.

Dave Franchino: [00:21:00] Speaking of innovation, two things that are really having a profound impact on software as a service provider are artificial intelligence and machine learning. And I won't ask you to divulge anything confidential, of course, but I'm assuming that those are on the cusp of having a profound impact on your business as well. And I'm wondering how you go about grappling with how to sort of understand, internalize, and develop a strategy on some technologies that right now are kind of complicated and to some extent abstract concepts. So how are you getting through the buzz or through the hype and trying to understand what these technologies are really going to mean for you and your firm?

Deanna Ballew: [00:21:43] I love that you use the word hype because it has felt, you know, like for the past decade and even more that A.I. has been a lot of hype. It's, you know, we're seeing it used in our market space. We're seeing it used elsewhere. But is it really solving a problem or is it just hype that's like "Oh, I get to talk about this.”? And that's where I've been most interested in the past, especially past decade, is what could A.I., especially computer vision, what does that do to change the way that our software works?

[00:22:17] And the question has always been like, what value is that going to solve? Just like it's one thing to say, like, "Let's do it." But is it actually solving a problem or if we were to implement it is it actually going to add complexity? Is it going to cause our users to have completely missed expectations? Because, you know, I think at the end of the day bad A.I. is worse than no A.I., right? Bad data is worse than no data. Like you have to make sure that you're doing it, you're using it in the right way, shape, and form. So, what we're really doing at Widen is we're at a foundational approach with especially machine learning at this moment. What we're doing is, you know, learning, we're partnering. We're networking on, you know, who are the experts right now? What are they doing and how have they developed it?

[00:23:03] A lot of especially with machine learning and how you can leverage that as well, it's like what are the ethics around using it? How do you decide when to you use it? How do you do it well? I mean, you think about computer vision and some of the training. How do you make sure that you have computer vision that's not biased and areas of that nature? There's a lot of ethical, foundational pieces that we're talking about internally at Widen, but we also are starting to really understand what it would take to add machine learning and how it can transform our business operations and how we make decisions day to day, but then also how it can transform our users' experience to like being personalized when they are using our system. And so, to do this, though, we now know about accurate and reliable data, and that's where we're at. We're about figuring out how do we get our data house in order? How do we actually put structure around it before we can even think about activating it? Activating it is further down the road. So, our foundational approach right now is networking, working with partners who are experts in this area, and just starting to get our data in order so that at some point in the future we can activate it.

Dave Franchino: [00:24:20] That's a really thoughtful response, and one thing that reminds me of is I know you've written about how software companies can often make the mistake of conflating adding features to their products with adding value. Maybe AI and machine learning represent that risk. I'm curious how Widen makes sure that it's adding value to its customers with its focus on innovation.

Deanna Ballew: [00:24:43] Yeah, and to add value, I think really, it's in the eye of the user, right? So, how do we make sure we ask them? And we ask them, and we watch what they do. So, with our user research and the qualitative and quantitative research that we are getting back, we're now getting even more disciplined in this area. And we have implemented the HEART framework from Google -- you know, happiness, engagement, adoption, retention, and task metrics. So, when we're looking at first even to decide what are we going to solve, we're looking at what our users are currently doing, what problems do they have? And then we're solving that and asking them with clickable prototypes, you know, does this work? Does this not? But then we launch it, right? Now when we launch it that's just that's beginning, because it isn't until you see users use it that you know if it's actually going to be valuable. So that's where the iteration comes in.

[00:25:38] So the process that we have or the structure that we have in place at Widen is to start simple, get it into the hands of our users, and then let's watch them use it and ask them how they feel about using it, and then add onto it. So instead are trying to shove all that complexity in to begin with, start simple. And it's really hard. And we have to call ourselves out on it all the time. It's so often we're like, well, let's just add a setting ... Like, we don't know so let's add a setting for that. And it's like, oh my God, settings ... you have to train people on settings. Like settings are the worst thing ever for usable experience. So, like making sure that we challenge each other, that we have to, you know, remove that complexity, and just solve what we know to start with and learn from our users.

Stefanie Norvaisas: [00:26:25] I'd like to bounce back to a topic you brought up a few moments ago. You talked about the recognition that some people in your organization may or may not have a mindset for innovation.

[00:26:38] Right. Some people really love that sort of ambiguity and trial and really get excited by it. And for some people, it's really not their sweet spot. So, as you're in your role and you're relatively new role as chief innovation officer, I was wondering how you have been or how you plan on sort of organizing innovation, if you will. I've seen some companies say, OK, the innovation, we're going to create an innovation team and they're going to go to San Francisco and we're going to have a lab out there. I've seen others try to disperse it equally throughout their organization and sort of everything in between. Do you have an opinion on what you're going to try to achieve or what you've seen work or fail? Love to hear your expert, your expert opinion on that.

Deanna Ballew: [00:27:33] Yeah, I can certainly share with you what I'm hoping to try out. Like everything that I put in place that Widen, I knew that it may not always go as planned. And so, I expect some failures and some learnings from it. So, you know, I think each organization is different. And I have, you know, as we've networked and I've studied up on different options of how we could handle innovation at Widen -- with the size of Widen and where we're at -- I'm planning to put in place organizational model called ambidextrous organizations.

[00:28:05] And so, what this really means is it's not innovation going off in a corner and doing something that nobody else knows in the company. So, with ambidextrous organization, it's really my leadership is still across all of our R&D. However, we're going to have a portion of the company that is focused on the emerging business. Is focused on that adjacent innovation launched three years out and they're going to be looking at an opportunity pipeline and experimentation and putting prototypes together and deciding what is going to be the next best move for Widen and de-risking that along the way. And that's going to be messy. And that's going to, you know, there's going to be a lot of ambiguity in that. And that's OK. But while that's happening, we still have innovation going on across the organization, you know, what we're doing and what we're delivering to our customers every single day with Widen Collective and Digital Asset Management that still has innovation in it. And there's an innovation mindset, but it also has to be scale-able, has to be reliable, to be stable, like it has. You know, we have over 600,000 users across the world. Like that's a different mindset. So that still is going to happen and we're still going to have leadership in place to make sure that happens. So, what I'm hoping that we have in place here is that with this structure, we'll be able to borrow in this new team some of the great things from the core side of our business so, you know, maybe we're borrowing our customer problems, maybe we're borrowing our brand, but then we can put in place new processes that we're moving fast.

[00:29:36] And it's messy and it's uncomfortable and we don't really know what's going on. Whereas the other, you know, portion of the business is it has a more of a structured process. There's also going to be two different strategies that we're going to play. So, we have a strategy for our core business. And now with the emerging sides that I'm looking to shape up it's going to have its own strategy Because the core strategy, it needs profit. We need, you know, a revenue return in a year. We know there's different metrics there. This emerging strategy, we're three to five years out. That has to be measured differently and that has to have different goals and a different direction. So that has to get put in place. And there's some ideas that I don't have it all figured out.

Stefanie Norvaisas: [00:30:19] Well, I can tell you, having worked with a number of different companies who have tried all kinds of different models, nobody has it figured out. But I do see a lot of experimentation. Generally, what I see is companies try one and then try another and try another and learn all kinds of things throughout. So, I look forward to watching your journey and seeing how it goes for you. You guys have, it seems, a very strong learning organization. And I think that's really going to be ... It seems like it's been key to your success in the past and it will continue to be key to your success in the future.

Dave Franchino: [00:30:57] Yes, most definitely. I'll even go beyond that. One thing that's just become very apparent during the course of this conversation is that you bring kind of that innate sense of curiosity to your job. That's a word that kind of struck me, as always, listening to the way you tend to study and research and learn new things, bring in outside biases, consider things. I'm curious how much of that do you think reflects the culture of Widen and how much of that is just the way you personally are wired? And what are things that leaders can do to gain permission within their organization for that sort of kind of curiosity and behavior? That's something I think we've really grappled with here at Delve, as well. And I'm curious what leaders can do to take that kind of mindset and infuse it across the breadth of their organization.

Deanna Ballew: [00:31:46] Curiosity is a good one. I think, now that you describe it, you know, I am very curious. I think there are other colleagues at Widen, especially when I started, that learning mentality was there. That curiosity talent has been part of the fabric of our DNA since I started and I'm guessing it was there even before that. So, you know, maybe that's why we've been able to do what we can do. And I do bring a lot of that to the table. I think as a leader and I guess the other piece of, you know, as the leaders that I've had at Widen, one of the ways that that curiosity has returned this growth is that they support it.].

[00:32:32] Widen supported the learning. Widen invest invested in me. We invest in our employees. Like, go get that, you know, that certification. Go to that conference. Let's go try that out. So, supporting that and supporting that curiosity then gives you, you know, that motivation to just go to the next step and the next step and to bring it back. So, you know, as a leader, you need to support that, right? People are curious, people are inquisitive, and you can choose how you respond, and you can choose to get defensive and ask. "Well, we've always done it that way. Why would we change that?" Or you can choose to say, you know, "Tell me more. What do you think's not going right? What t do you think we could do differently?" We can respond to that curiosity or that questioning differently to then encourage it and to keep it going. Or we can choose to shut it down and we don't shut it down. I don't shut it down and we don't shut it down at Widen. So that, I think is a choice of a leader and how you could foster it within your teams.

Dave Franchino: [00:33:35] That's great and well-articulated. It is inspiring both for us as listeners of this podcast and I'm sure for the people who work at Widen, as well. Relative to the current situation, I guess, our country faces, a lot of companies are coming to the realization that business models and plans are going to need to adjust. They're going to adjust for new behaviors, new realities that might mean changes to products or services or distribution models or just brand messages. Any sense on what you think is going to need to change for Widen and how it goes to market or, in general, software as a service? How will firms react to the pandemic and how are things changing? How much is it business as usual?

Deanna Ballew: [00:34:18] You know, as I think about this for Widen, I don't know how much we will really have to change in the moment because we're already in tune with our customers.

[00:34:29] So, our strength is in our service and our relationships with our customers. And that's what we really just leaned in, we amplified that during the pandemic. We put special services out there and we offer those to our customers who needed it or just to the folks that we were working with who were now in a remote world. So, the individuals who just needed some extra help on how they can train up their teams and things like that. So, at Widen, we really leaned into that. And I do fully intend to pivot our roadmap and where we're going based on all the changes that people's user behaviors and the length of the pandemic that's going to continue on, but the way that we work and function with listening to our users, watching our users, engaging with them every step of the way ... they're going to tell us what they need and then we're gonna pivot with that. So, you know, there are some ideas that we've already been talking about. There's nothing set in stone. So, I don't know how exactly what that will look for Widen. But, you know, I think that there will be something that comes forth as long as we keep listening to what our customers are having issues with and what they're struggling with or what they're looking towards themselves as far as fast companies and general service. I mean, service is going to have to be something that you can't just say you have service here, but you have to deliver a service, especially during the pandemic. You're going to have to put your money where your mouth is there and really do that in order to build that customer relationship, to continue that business with them.

Dave Franchino: [00:36:02] Maybe one last question, I'll ask Steph if she's got any others. But there's certainly a lot to be concerned about right now. But what excites you about the future and what new opportunities might be arising that might not have presented themselves or that this pandemic is accentuating or accelerating?

Deanna Ballew: [00:36:19] Oh, the adoption of new technologies, like something, you know, the adoption of a new way of working that might have taken years or decades has now happened in three months. Like I think of telehealth visits. Like, that would have taken forever and now everybody is able to do that. And doctor's offices have figured it out. And it's the rate of change. Like people are having to do things differently and we're trying it out. We're might still be fearful, but given where we're at, we're actually doing that. We're changing our user behavior. So that's extremely exciting. I also love seeing how large organizations are pivoting to support communities. So, you see, you know, the large companies that are now, they change everything to produce ventilators. They're producing masks, things like that. And they've figured out how to pivot that fast. And if they figured out how to pivot that fast for this, how are they going to then change the way they work so that they can even do more for us in the future?

[00:37:19] And then, you know, I also think about some of the big tech companies that are working together. So, Google and Apple and how they came together to put an API in place that could be leveraged for contact tracing. I just think about like two of these big competitors have found a way to work together to deliver something that could possibly help out, you know, the larger community. So, just knowing that people are banding together. So, there's lots of cool, exciting things to see happening right now.

[00:37:51] On the flip side of that, I think what we're also going to come out on the other side of this is so many learnings of the things that aren't going well. So, we're seeing so many things going on with how we gather data, how we do reporting, how we're tracking and the systems that we don't have in place and the connectivity that we don't have in place, or the fear of, you know, data collection, things like that. Through all of this, I think the learnings that we're going to capture of what did not go well on the other side is going to be transformational.

Dave Franchino: [00:38:27] Excellent stuff. Stef, anything?

Stefanie Norvaisas: [00:38:30] No, this has been really great. I think it's so great to hear you talk. And I'm really excited about the next couple years for Widen. I mean, with all the work that you've done. Preparing for innovation and studying in 2019 is really going to pay dividends right now, where so many companies are being pushed to innovate and they aren't ready. And you guys are ready to roll.

Dave Franchino: [00:38:58] Yeah, I'll echo Stef's comments, and once again, this has been a delightful conversation and very inspiring as well. So again, congratulations on your remarkable success and very excited to see both continued success for you personally and Widen the firm as well, because what you've been able to do with Widen is really remarkable.

[00:39:17] Once again, everybody, our guest today was Deanna Ballew, who's the Vice President, I'm sorry, was Vice President of Product Development, but now is moving into Chief Innovation Officer. So, congratulations on that as well. Widen is a marketing technology company that has a fantastic software platform for brand management, contact lifecycle management, video, and creative management solutions. We will make sure there's a link to that in the comments of this. Deanna, thank you so very much for your time and for the great insights you've been provided. This conversation has been a delight.

Deanna Ballew: [00:39:48] Thank you. Dave.